Meet Andy Gilman, Candidate for Ojai Mayor
An extensive interview full of surprises.
Greetings readers!
Before we get into today’s story, let me give you an update on what I’ve been up to. I’m pursuing a few stories simultaneously — including the rapid growth of the Ojai Unified School District’s (OUSD) independent study program with Rock Tree Sky1, a retrospective on the ceasefire debate at the Ojai City Council, and an investigation into the future of agriculture in the valley2. Realistically, those topics will keep me busy until the end of spring. Another story I’m interested in exploring is noise pollution resulting from SpaceX’s Starlink launches at Vandenberg Air Force Base3. I think that this is a lesser-explored (and lesser-regulated) form of environmental pollution.
As part of my investigation into Ojai agriculture, I had the opportunity to participate in a pixie harvest (!!!!) earlier this week — harvesting fruit for Friends Ranches alongside a crew of 22 male, Spanish-speaking laborers. I’ll write something about the experience once I’ve had some time to think on it. For now, I’ll say this: it was very cool, and I’m a bit sore from all the crouching. I’ve been told, however, that harvesting citrus is nothing compared to harvesting strawberries.
A peek at the harvest is below:
One final note on citrus before we move on: I posted a citrus-inspired cake recipe earlier this month, if you’re into that kind of thing. I’m absolutely experimenting with the type of content I bring to this space (and I welcome feedback).
Anyways. Let’s get to the topic at hand: the Ojai Mayoral race!
Andy Gilman, a longtime Ojai resident and the director of the local nonprofit The Agora Foundation, is running for mayor4. The Agora Foundation runs great books seminars and promotes civil discourse. Readers may recognize Gilman as a host of numerous Ojai Chautauqua events — panel discussions and interviews on issues like declining public school enrollment, wildfire readiness, homelessness, and more. Ojai Chautauqua’s tagline is “come for the controversy, stay for the insight.”
Before we get to know Gilman, let’s address the first question: does incumbent Mayor Betsy Stix plan to run for reelection? Stix confirmed to me in September 2023 that she planned to seek a third term. I asked her the same question in March and she responded with the statement below.
“Historically, Ojai mayoral campaigns have begun around August. Election Day is over seven months away. I imagine that Ojai voters would appreciate a few months of campaigning before the election rather than over half a year. At present, I am going to continue to focus on my work as Mayor,” Stix wrote. “My priorities over the coming months are climate action, strengthening eviction protections for renters in good standing, accelerating street paving, taking care of our trees, and maintaining civil discourse in council meetings. In addition, I am working to increase housing opportunities for locals by discouraging vacation rental operations as well as building Ojai’s financial reserves so that we are adequately prepared to weather the next financial downturn.”
Interesting.
I had the opportunity to sit down with Gilman last week for a wide-ranging conversation about his history in Ojai, the forthcoming campaign, and his policy goals. Charmingly, he lives within walking distance of my own home. This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity. All brackets and parentheses were added in the editing process. I’ll also note that Gilman tends to refer to local elected officials by their first names, which is not my typical practice. I deferred to his convention here.
MEET ANDY GILMAN, CANDIDATE FOR OJAI MAYOR
Andra Belknap: Why do you want to run for mayor? And I am not asking about your policy goals here, I want to know why you as an individual are motivated to do this work.
Andy Gilman: Really starting with the Ojai Chautauqua [panels]5, I became more worried that the national [political] conflict that we're seeing was happening here.
How is it that we have suddenly tolerated now, people being afraid to try to help out and run for office? How is that okay?6 Now I get it on the national level, that's the trend. But Ojai should be different and could be different, but we are not different right now.
So that’s one thing that I would like to say upfront, and I'm going to say it at the Council meetings and everywhere I can, is [that] I would like to do a kind of Ojai reset on politics.
What I [thought about was] all the work that we did with the Chautauqua and all the [great books] seminars that I do, and the budgets that I've managed in the past and all that, and I thought, ‘I could actually really help out.’ And I put it off for two cycles.
I thought about running [before COVID]. Of course, it's daunting. I'm slightly reluctant to be honest. So to say, ‘Do I want to do it’ is not quite the right verb. It's more [that] I feel compelled to do it. Again, because of the Chautauqua work and facilitating so many groups, I feel like I could actually bring a couple of sides together, and say, ‘How can we have a compromise?’ So that's my main goal, trying to find a way that we can have some solution[s] that everybody can live with.
Belknap: I appreciate that honest answer. Was there a particular person or event that moved you closer to the decision?
Gilman: I can't think of an instance, but I guess the way what happened, for example, with [Councilwoman] Leslie [Rule] and the Brown Act thing7, and then [Councilwoman] Suza [Francina]’s not having [in-district] housing8 when we had already voted that we wanted to get out of district [elections] as soon as legally feasible.9
So Suza doesn't have a place in her district. We already know that we don't want this system, and here she is in the system. And then to have this conversation like, ‘Well, we need to obey the law, so we might need to have her be out.’10 It feels very disingenuous. And I've said that to everybody on the Council.
And so that's the kind of thing where I thought we're actually being really ineffective in how we could be working on these things. You've probably seen the pieces [in the Ojai Valley News] that I've written already about shortening the meeting times, having a time certain model, not having the mayor unilaterally put things on the agenda.
Belknap: Tell me about the campaign you want to run. How do you plan to reach voters?
Gilman: I plan to be at Libby Park every Tuesday morning, I'll be there from 9 to 11 am to talk with anybody about anything. I want to hear people's ideas about what they're looking for and what they're concerned about. And then the typical things like attending every social event, attending the Rotary [clubs] and the Chambers and all of that.
I would agree to a spending cap on the campaign and that any money raised over the spending cap would go to [a local non-profit like] HELP of Ojai, for example. Second, whoever runs for office, if we could all agree, let's not have lawn signs down Ojai Avenue, I would love that.
And then can we agree that we are going to talk about how we can solve these problems in Ojai and not attack the other person's personality or history or whatever? And that really when our supporters do that, we chastise them publicly and ask them to stop.
I plan to have something in everybody's mailbox —something recycled, [something] small. [And] then knock on every single door in our city.
And of course, I'd like to, whoever is going to run, I would like to have some kind of conversation and record it and publish it. Because whoever runs, I'm sure we're going to agree about at least 50% if not more. Let's talk about what we agree on. And if it does happen to be [Mayor] Betsy [Stix], for example, then what I hope is, and I'm going to offer the same thing, I would love Betsy to consider me as an advisor if she were to be reelected. And the opposite, I would love to hear her feedback if I'm elected.
Belknap: You're obviously the director of the Agora Foundation. (I interviewed Gilman on camera about the Agora Foundation in Fall of 2023.)11 One thing I want to ask you about here is how Agora Foundation is funded. Can you tell me about that?
Gilman: Three ways. One is we have subscribers. Then we write grants. We do get funded by about five or six foundations every year. And then finally, it's private donors. It's people that live in town who care about what we're doing and it.
Belknap: Okay. Policy questions. So I'm going to quote you to you (Gilman’s platform is here) and then ask you to say a little more. So you wrote that you want to “lead the initiative on affordable housing rather than be forced into state deadlines by supporting projects we would like to have here.” I would love for you to say more.
Gilman: Well, I'm going to quote your article.
Belknap: 👀
Gilman: Which was at the 11th hour in December, we accepted a Becker Group agreement. But if I remember your article correctly, it was at what cost? Increased density.12 Yes, we did get some more [affordable] units, but something that was not wanted was more units in general and with increased legal costs and a polarized community. That's what I mean by we could have worked a year ago or longer to say, ‘let's work with a developer around how could we build something that we would actually really like.’13
The [development] that's going to be on Bryant, I think is a great project.14 I was for it a hundred percent, and I'm still for it. And I would even support another one of those, or something like a Mesa (an in-progress ten-unit transitional housing project sited in Ojai’s east end) kind of idea.15
I attended a meeting with many donors for Mesa, and I thought, ‘We should be having an event like this on a property for transitional housing for the unhoused [community] downtown.’ Imagine you have 40 people of means, and we're looking at what can we do to solve this problem so that it's not at Kent Hall and it's not in the downtown [City Hall] property.
That's the kind of project, where we're not just saying, ‘no,’ we're not saying ‘we're just no-growth’, and we're not forced into it by our state priority change.
And December was an example of that. The attorney was pretty, I thought, clear enough to say, ‘If you don't accept this now, here's what you will be forced to accept in January. You might have to accept a five-story project that you don't get to say no to.’
Belknap: You brought up the Becker project. Hugely controversial. It ends up passing with a four to one vote after negotiations led by former Councilmen Bill Weirick and Ryan Blatz. How would you have voted on that?
Gilman: Oh boy, you're really pressing. I wasn't in those negotiations, so it’s hard for me to say exactly, but probably yes.
I guess I don't see a for-profit developer as kind of an inherent demon16. I think you would say our whole country's sort of based on people working for their own interest, and it's the competing interests where the truth or the flourishing tends to emerge. That's how our country is designed. So I would've said, ‘Okay, a for-profit developer's coming to want to do a project, that is something that could also benefit the city generally through low-cost housing.’ So probably I would've voted yes, but luckily we have the state mandates behind us… it gives us more leverage to press for more affordable housing in a for-profit project. And I like that.
Belknap: You also wrote, “diversify our economy so our overdependence on tourism can be managed and our middle class can live and work here.” I'd love for you to say more about tactics for economic diversification, especially given that you are somebody who worked a long time for a non-tourist business in Ojai and continues to.17
Gilman: So we have this situation, as everybody understands, the tourism and the service industry jobs in general have grown, and the professional industry jobs have declined. And the EDC, the Economic Development Collaborative, their estimate in 2019 was [that] 4,000 people in our community are traveling in and out of the valley every day.18 I don’t know if that’s still true. Let’s say it’s something like that.
So that to me is a pretty serious problem where people who live here, there's no jobs here for them, so they commute out and then there's a whole bunch of people that commute in who can't afford to live here. We all get that. So when we talk about traffic and the problem of traffic, we want to blame the tourists and the tourists are worth blaming. But we also need to look at this other problem, which is we have all these people leaving and coming in.
So in the course of my [career], as you said, I worked for BST for 18 years.19 That was a large employer. We were all working on computers. It was a clean consulting company, and there were 60 of us here, and there were about 50 people [working] remotely. And we were all well-paid and ate out to lunch a few times a week and all that kind of stuff. And we had people traveling in and staying at the hotels midweek and all that.
The city by design, if I can quote [former Ojai City Manager] James Vega, if I can remember his quote correctly, it was that the city deliberately makes it difficult for businesses to relocate here.20 And that's by design. And I agree with that in the sense that we want to be really clear about what we want here. We don't want the chain stores. I'm with that a hundred percent.
But what we do is, in my opinion, we create too many obstacles for a business to want to relocate here and [businesses] have to make such an investment to even get to the possibility of being discussed. The way I hear businesses talk about it is [with] the city, the goalposts just continue to move. So they'll say, ‘Okay, give us a plan that does X.’ They will come in with a plan. ‘Okay, well now we need you to do Y. Now we need you to do this.’ And the anecdotes that I have, the businesses just decide we're out.
So when you talk about tactics, one thing I would like to look at, and you're going to hear me use this expression a lot, but we're small enough and supple enough that we should be looking at ordinances, working with understanding what's the spirit of the ordinance versus the letter.
With that in mind, looking at the spirit of it, we have an ordinance [saying], you need this many parking spots if you have this many tables. Let's just use restaurants as one case in point, we have the former Suzanne's over here, and we have the former Casa de Lagos over here. Now what I have understood, Suzanne's will not be able to have a business come in with the same number of tables because it doesn't have enough parking spots. And I'm told that Casa de Lagos can't have outdoor and indoor seating because it doesn't have enough parking spots.21 So then you think, okay, that's where the letter [of the ordinance] went completely wrong.
So back to the bigger question. What I'd like to do, and I'm having to say this now because I'm going to say it to them, my colleagues, my former colleagues at the [Ojai] Chamber [of Commerce], they were tasked, they were given funding to attract businesses from outside the valley.
And it appears they didn't produce much. They continue to work and to help out new businesses. But what I would like to do is work with the Chamber as a vendor to say we have a task force with city staff, myself, the Chamber — I was on their board and I was their treasurer — to say, we are going to actively seek out businesses that we would like to attract here into town. And we are holding you accountable as any vendor. So in 30 days we want to see a report.
So tactically, to have several of these projects in the works, looking for these kinds of businesses, and again, removing some of those, ‘keep moving the goalpost’ obstacles.
Belknap: We have a homeless community camping at City Hall. Talk to me about how, if and how, it could be better managed.
Gilman: Anybody who says, ‘Oh, it's an easy problem to solve,’ I think doesn't understand how complex and difficult the problem is. What the Supreme Court is looking at right now with what law enforcement can do [to move camps], it complicates it, but it also brings a level of compassion. As you've seen in the case, [the Ninth Circuit Court determined] it's cruel and unusual punishment to just say, ‘you just can't be here.’ And I agree with that. Then the issue is what to do [next].
Working with HELP of Ojai, as I've tried to do lately, they will talk about [how] getting somebody “document-ready”22 takes time. The housing first model [of assisting folks with homelessness] makes perfect sense to me. Get the person into a house first, get them document-ready. And as you and other people have reported on, most of these people are Social Security-eligible or getting it, and they’re often disabled. In fact, somebody I went to junior high with is [living in the camp.]
Gilman: As far as how to make it be better, I actually don't know the answer. What could have been done differently? I'm not sure. But what I would say is, what can be done now, is to make sure that people are as okay as we can possibly make it. And then as you know, the [Encampment Resolution Funding] grant [application] has been written and we will know — [City Manager] Ben [Harvey] says — by the end of the month.
And again, the people who, as I mentioned before, [attended] this donor meeting for Mesa, every single one of those people should be at a donor meeting for our housing issue here.
I mean, we have people that have, their means are so great. For them to buy a lot for a million dollars would be nothing.23 So then let's get a few people together and get a property. For example, the apartment complex that's across from the laundromat, like near Sea Fresh just sold — I think — for $1.4 million.
So imagine if you built something like that to get people document-ready.24 I'm seeing that as one of the kind of signature things we'll be doing the rest of the year and next year, whoever's on the Council, it'll be one of their main priorities. So my answer is I don't know what we could have done differently. If you do, I would love to hear It.
Belknap: I think the big issue is going to be those tents. The city committed to 30 (heavy-duty) tents, and I mean, for the sake of discussion I'll just say they're never going to get $12 million in grant funding25. They may get some amount of grant funding. And then the question is, what happens to these tents? What happens to the people in the tents if we don’t have the grant funding to build those modular units? I don't know the answer to that either.
Gilman: I hear you. That's what I think the mobilization of the, again, this group of 50 people that fund the Music Festival, that fund Agora, the Land Conservancy, the Ojai Defense Fund, those are the people that can do this.
One more thing, I want to fill out [the] issue a hundred percent: I do not think that Kent Hall is the place for this [housing] for lots of reasons. One is just literally the slope.
And secondly, the people who live in that neighborhood have already, I mean, if you're at the Council meeting, you heard them talking.26 So that needs to be considered. It seems to me how, again, everybody's got the not in my backyard syndrome, but I do think all these voices need to be considered and heard seriously. So I would like to build something that's more considerate and deliberate.
Belknap: You did a great interview with the HELP of Ojai leadership. One thing co-Executive Director Jayn Walter brought up is that there’s a real reluctance to just look at people who are struggling with homelessness or poverty. She said that there was some significant pushback to HELP moving to their new location on Montgomery Street.27 So, the other challenge I think someone like Jayn would talk about is that their clients need to be in a central location so they can receive services.
Gilman: And that there's public transportation [accessible]. I feel like places like HELP of Ojai do have a lot to offer, and they would have to get beefed up to offer it. I'll admit that too.
Belknap: Let’s move to another topic: what are your thoughts about how Mayor Stix managed the ceasefire debate?
Gilman: I did get lots of emails asking what I think about their vote. I parsed it this way: to me, there was only one question that should be asked and answered. And that is, should a city council without any binding authority and expressly beyond its purview, vote on issues of national or international importance? And my answer is they should not.
Belknap: And yet, historically, they do often.
Gilman: That's fine. In fact, I listened to the whole [Feb. 26th] meeting (where the ceasefire resolution was ultimately approved) and there were a few people that did provide logic, and one [person brought up that the Council] voted on a [proclamation supporting the people of Ukraine] under Betsy.28 And that's logical, I mean [I think], the Ukraine one is easy because we all agree that Russia usurped its authority. But that's also the same thing. We shouldn't have done it, in my opinion.
And so that's probably what I would have started off to say, which is, and you're going to see this, the [Agora Foundation] interview that's coming out that we just did with Ben Harvey.29 [He] says, ‘we are going to provide an ordinance to the council so that they don't do that going forward.’ He thinks it was a mistake.
What I would've liked to have seen better would've been we're spending three hours figuring out how to work on our paving situation. That’s the time I want to see spent. Now, if somebody were to say, ‘In the South, before Brown vs. Board of Education, you would have cities having these movements and things like that, [but] that was about them in their [community] at their school. It's different. I could see the argument.
So on the other hand though, the reason to bring it up and to talk about it was because you had the community wanting to talk about it. And I agree with that. And so I think, honestly, I'm going to have to think about this in this way. I'm going to want to say to the person who wants to talk about the horribleness that's happening there, what I want to say is, ‘I hear you. What we need to talk about here is not the details of Israel. What we need to talk about here is whether this body should have this kind of vote.’
Now you asked specifically about Betsy. I'm sure she regrets giving that one woman extra time.30 Who would not regret that? I mean, I was looking at it. I watched what happened. She said, ‘Does anybody object to giving her more time?’ And nobody [did].
Belknap: They were scared.31
Gilman: I think what I would have said is, ‘Help us hone the question in, because the question is this one, in my view: should a city council without any binding authority have this vote?’
Belknap: So by that logic, it was a mistake to declare ourselves a nuclear-free zone and an International City of Peace.
Gilman: I realize I might be losing votes here, but it's how I feel.
I said to [Councilwoman] Leslie [Rule]. She said, ‘I'm going to propose this elephant [ordinance]’ And she explained it to me and I thought about it for a while, and I came back to her and I said, ‘It seems to me that the logic of your argument proceeds this way: if elephants are going to be part of this ordinance, then I see no reason why all primates wouldn't, for example, and any animals that would show you any signs of this greater intelligence. It seems to me then you have the difficulty of deciding, well, what's the level of intelligence? How would it be measured? So then it would go down to say, dogs. So are you saying we can't have dogs?
That's not a place I want to go. And so I think it's illogical [and] that we shouldn't do it. That was my advice to her. And so if we want to say we're an International City of Peace, the way that some people have said it does sound right, which is it's something that we care about and we want to think of that as a deep characteristic of our city. I'm completely for that. But I don't think the International City of Peace, as some pointed out, means we want to weigh in on every international conflict.
So my answer is I would've voted for the International City of Peace declaration. I would not have voted [yes] on the elephant thing and the nuclear-free zone.
Belknap: Ok — on your website, you propose exploring a 1-5% increase in TOT32 and a 1% increase in sales tax. What would you do with that (theoretical) revenue?
Gilman: I would love to take 1% of the TOT, then say that goes directly to Ojai’s nonprofits. It's called the OCC, the Ojai Cultural Contribution. That's something I've been thinking about for years now.
[Former City Manager] James [Vega] brought up the fact that the small size of our city government is buttressed by our nonprofits. HELP of Ojai transporting [seniors and individuals with disabilities] would be one example. So what I would love to do is to say part of that increased revenue would go right towards nonprofits applying, having to fill out their reporting, you know.
But the first thing I'd probably do, if we look at the efficiency and we have this extra percent on the revenue side, I would want to increase the budget on the road paving. I’d like to move up that time table. That would be the first thing.
[And] as you saw, Councilwoman Rachel [Lang] did bring up a 1% sales tax increase.
We started talking about this with [City Manager] Ben [Harvey] at our interview, if we do have a 1% sales tax, how does that work between the county and the city? And also what data do we have that points to Ben's suspicion, which is the tourists would take up the bulk of [that tax burden]? If that's true, I'm all for it. If it's residents primarily, then I'm not for it. [I want to explore] the details of all those things. Then I would want to look at the expense side and the revenue side together.
[On] the expense side, are we spending our money well? One item you didn't bring up on the revenue side is: can we justify an enforcement person that isn't in place right now? Is there revenue to be gained right now that we're not collecting because we don't have the staff? I think the answer might be yes. I would like to hear what Ben has to think about that.
Belknap: So a new addition to council meetings are these velvet ropes that separate the council members from the public. What are your thoughts about that change?
Gilman: Yeah, I hadn't thought about that too much.
Belknap: I’ve thought about it a ton.
Gilman: I don't like it. I understand why they have it there. They were afraid of what happened [with] people coming passionate about Israel. I would like to see them removed.
I know this is my own personality and I'll have to look at this and see whether this is correct or not, but I probably would not have left the council chambers when I saw the conflict, I would've stayed in there. But that's my own personality, and I probably will continue to stay in there. So I don't need those ropes.
Belknap: Thank you for that. I hate those stupid ropes. Anyways — you’ve proposed to do something that Mayor Stix has not been able to do, which is create unity on the council. So how do you propose to achieve that goal practically?
Gilman: I wrote this piece in the Ojai Valley News [prior to the results of the 2022 mayoral race] I said, you, Betsy, or whoever won: you won by literally dozens of votes. So don't act as if you have a mandate. And I've said those things to Betsy directly. So unfortunately, that's how it seems to be: here's what we believe, here's our ideology and we're going to act accordingly.
So you're talking about two things. One would be policy and one is the meetings. On the policy side, I would really like to hear from all the sides in a real open way, not with my pre-written document that I'm going to repeat.33
And I do think we could find a place where we can have a compromise. Here's [an] Ojai person, like you and I are, loves our town. [They may say,] ‘I like some of the tourist things that are here. I like the high quality of the art. I like that there are wineries. I like that there are nice restaurants. Okay, do I want more tourism? No. I love the environment and I'm happy that we have the revenue that we do have citywide, but I want to protect it.’ So I think what I just said to you just now, I'm going to guess at least half the people feel exactly this way. So that's the conversation to start from.
I [do] believe that the district voting has caused so many difficulties for our city. [I’d] like to get out of the district voting as soon as legally feasible. I would like to be a leader in that.
Can I talk about OUSD now?
Belknap: Absolutely! Let’s talk about OUSD.
Gilman: I think about OUSD enrollment the same way I think about water, in the sense that, here's one of the arteries of our community. As we know, it's been in declining enrollment since 2000. And the projection has just continued to decline. As you probably saw that they're looking at some more cuts. And so I think that the relationship between the city and OUSD is not as robust as it should be.
I understand OUSD, like Casitas [Municipal Water District], spans way more than the city. But I also see the City of Ojai as the seat of the valley. And the decisions we make affect Oak View, Mira Monte, Casitas Springs, and so on. I understand they don't get to bind us on how to vote, but I want to hear what they think
With OUSD, I'd love to meet with them as much as I do now, which is at least a couple times a month, where I'm like, ‘Okay, here's what you guys are working on. What can we do to support you? You're proposing affordable housing at the downtown property. Love it. Great. 100%.’ I'm like, ‘Gosh, could this be better? What can we do to support you? How can we help you?’
Now if you ask the Council, they might be saying, ‘Yeah, we like the idea.’ But I would just like to say, this is our lifeline. I think of [OUSD] as a lifeline.
Belknap: There's a lot of gossip in Ojai about who relies on whose opinion. So I'd love to know if you can tell me some of the folks who you consult with, whose opinions you really trust.
Gilman: I would say the press in general, non-profit leaders like Jayn [Walter] and Meghan [Telfer], the Land Conservancy, but also people in the Chamber of Commerce, people like Bob Daddi, people like [former Councilman] Bill Weirick, [and also] my neighbors across the street. The kind of people that I'm trying to assemble in general, they would be people at OUSD, private schools, neighbors, business owners, and non-profit leaders. And really, I do want to hear from all those people. And I guess I've kind of had this vision before, if you could get the 200 people that sort of make Ojai work… the volunteers, the directors. I think I know most of them. And I work with them and I respect them, and I hope that they respect me. And I hope that I can lean into that. I've tried and [I] enjoy being right in the middle of our community, and I hope I can use that to get us all on the same page. I mean that.
There are people, and this goes back to our initial point, they'll say, ‘I support you and I'm going to vote for you. I can't publicly support you because everybody is so vicious. My business will be impacted.’ That's the problem. That is a problem.
So my hesitancy in naming names is that reason is I want to protect them. If I was you, I would write, people are afraid to publicly endorse because they're afraid of retaliation.
Belknap: Yeah. I've heard about really intense conflicts between neighbors and friendships just ending over politics. Local politics.
Gilman: So this is what I think has happened over the years, and it didn't just start with Trump, but people with differing opinions, instead of being a person with a different point of view, they have become a traitor. That is going to undermine our democracy. Democracy depends on alternating views and coming to some point of compromise from the outset — that is there by design. So if we decide we are intolerant of compromise, we are going to, well, we will fall. There's no guarantee that democracy will last. We have to make it last. And it's through compromise that it lasts.
Belknap: I would say that one of the problems that we have with this Council specifically is the lack of trust. Amongst members and their supporters.
Gilman: What I would hope is that every one of those council people would see me as somebody fair and somebody who will listen. And that I don't feel like I have a huge ideological state except for listening and compromising.34 So I hope I could work well with all that are there. And whether that's Suza or whoever, Suza’s replacement.35
And I did say to Betsy, this was in, I don't know, March or April last year. We were meeting and she said, ‘Oh, I heard you thinking of running for mayor.’ I said, ‘Honestly, I'd rather support you, but you're not bringing your city together.’
Belknap: Interesting. Ok — you wrote on your website that you had a bunch of different jobs as an Ojai teen: The Gables, Sea Fresh, and Wheeler Hot Springs. Can you tell me a story from one of those jobs?
Gilman: I mean, the sad story is my mother died at Wheeler Hot Springs when I was 17.
Belknap: Oh my goodness. I’m so sorry.
Gilman: It’s so long ago, it’s not sensitive anymore. In 1987, I worked there and my mother worked there. And then there was a big storm. And what happens with our oak trees? The trees fall. So a tree fell and my mother died. And the owner, the manager [John Kaufer].
But yeah, let's think of a fun story… I learned this really valuable lesson at Sea Fresh. We used to have our fish and chips — it was probably shark or something like that. So you would just cut up and it'd be fine. And then they got a whole bunch of snapper. [My boss is] like, ‘Okay, great, our fish and chips now are going to be snapper.’ Great. And he says, ‘Oh, the only problem is they have these bones down the middle.’ So each order of fish and chips, you have to cut the bones out.
So I'm the only person cooking in the back — [I’m] 16. And then, okay, here's a fish and chips order. Great. And I started making the fish and chips order. I'm cutting the bones out. Another fish and chips order. I get the first one done and get that cooking. I'm now on the second one. Four more orders. Then four more orders.
And then [my boss] looks at me, he's like, ‘Are you okay?’ And I realized at that moment, the only thing [I] could do is do one fish and chips at a time. That's all we can do. And I remember the lesson that I learned at the time was you could freak out or you can just do what's in front of you.
Belknap: I thought for sure you were going to tell me that you served someone bony fish. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you'd like the community to know about you?
Gilman: So my intention with that website, and I realize that it's unconventional in the sense that I'm really, I'm trying to say, here's exactly what I think about these things. And also, here's who I am. Exactly. And what I would like to do is say, ‘Here's who I am 100%. And if you would like me to work for you, I want to do it.’ And I'm compelled to do it, but I don't want to win at all costs. I don't want to win by deception or by demeaning another side. I'm just going to be clear. And my friends tell me I'm crazy, and there's probably going to be times that I'm going to come home and be so upset by what somebody said on Facebook.
Belknap: Yep.
Gilman: I know who I am and who I want to present myself to be. And it's on that website.
Now I have to go teach the Tao Te Ching at the library.
Belknap: Awesome.
Rock Tree Sky (RTS) now has a licensing agreement with OUSD to use the San Antonio campus to house RTS programming and OUSD’s growing independent study program. To me, this is a clear indication of OUSD’s future, and the future of public school generally. Highly interesting stuff!
It’s part of the ongoing project with the Ojai Valley Museum I keep talking about.
Thank you to subscriber Sean McDermott for turning me on to this story!
He’s not actually filed candidate paperwork yet — no one has. It’s early yet.
The Agora Foundation’s Ojai Chautauqua discussions have evolved into online interviews with local public figures, including many of the characters we talk about here.
This is a narrative that is present in local political conversations — individuals expressing hesitancy to take political action locally due to potential social repercussions.
The “Brown Act thing,” unfortunately, continues in Ventura County Superior Court. A status conference regarding seven Ojai residents’ appeal of Judge Coats’ decision in defendants Rule and Drucker’s favor is scheduled for July. The Council voted 3-1 in June 2023 not to indemnify Rule — making her responsible for her own legal fees.
Francina was unable to find housing in her council district for some 18 months. In other words, she was homeless.
In 2018, the Ojai City Council switched from at-large elections to district-based elections. This switch is happening in cities all over California — regardless of population size — due to claims that at-large elections violate the California Voting Rights Act.
Mayor Stix and Councilman Andy Whitman both voted to consult the California Attorney General on the matter. Francina saw this as “an effort to get rid of [her]”.
For transparency: I received a stipend to conduct this interview in Fall 2023. I have not done any work for Gilman or the Agora Foundation since (or prior, for that matter).
This is a correct reflection of my reporting. The deal also included increased tenant protections.
I *think* the Council members who negotiated the Becker agreement would probably say that they did (or intended to do) exactly what Gilman is proposing here.
Mesa is transitional housing project for young people ages 18-24 consisting of ten tiny homes on an ten acre property outside of Ojai city limits. The tiny homes are currently under construction. Mesa received funding from the state’s Project Homekey. People’s Self Help Housing (a partner in the City of Ojai’s ERF grant proposal) is also a partner on the Mesa project.
Thank you to Andy for this colorful phrase.
Let me clarify for readers the relationship between GIlman’s former employer, consulting company BST (Behavioral Science Technology), and the Agora Foundation. The concept for the Agora Foundation was borne out of Great Books programming supported by BST. BST — which had a branch office in Ojai — was sold to Dekra International in 2012. BST Founder and Board Chairman Tom Krause is the President of the Agora Foundation Board. Gilman is Executive Director. Got it?!
I can’t find this exact stat. The latest data (2018) shows that 71% of Ojai residents drive alone to work, with an average commute time of 26 minutes. Unfortunately I cannot find data that reflects changes since the pandemic. I would love to see it.
At the time, BST was “a leading global provider of organizational safety consulting services and widely recognized as the founding provider of behavior-based safety solutions.”
I cannot confirm this statement, but am including it to demonstrate Gilman’s thinking.
Again, I cannot confirm these specifics, but I am including to demonstrate Gilman’s thinking.
Meaning, an individual has all the necessary documents to access public benefits. Anyone who has ever lost, say, a driver’s license, knows this can be an ordeal.
This is accurate — at least, conceptually — and it underscores the state of income inequality in the valley.
This is basically the concept behind Thousand Oaks’ ERF grant-funded “navigation center,” and emergency shelter. It will provide wrap-around services including helping unhoused folks get document ready.
Don’t know what I’m talking about? Read this story.
In general: they are not pleased.
“There was extreme pushback for us moving into 108 Montgomery,” Walter said. “‘I don’t want to see those kind of people coming to get food outside my house,’” She paraphrased, referring to the community of people who line up to take advantage of HELP’s food pantry.
Shoutout to Grace Malloy for doing this research.
This interview is not out yet.
He’s referring to what I’d consider the first flashpoint in the ceasefire debate that took place during a Dec. 20th special meeting on a proposed ceasefire resolution. After the Council agreed to allow a Palestinian woman extra time to speak (she declared, “I may be the only Palestinian that you’ll ever meet,”) an audience member stood up and yelled “that’s not fair!” Numerous audience members — on both sides — stood up and began yelling, and the Council exited the room.
This is 100% my opinion. And when I say scared, I mean afraid of political consequences.
TOT = transient occupancy tax. According to the city’s 23-24 adopted budget, TOT revenue represents $6 million of the city’s (roughly) $15 million general fund. That’s 40%.
This is an often-repeated criticism of Mayor Stix.
Here’s a quote from Gilman that I cut for space (and here I am adding it in again) “the word dialogue, literally in Greek, it [means] through logos, through logic. So in talking, the truth emerges.”
Francina is the only Ojai City Council member up for reelection this cycle.
In an earlier version of this article Andy indicated that he relied on William Weirick and Bob Daddi for advice and direction. Why was that reference dropped?
Seems a bit suspicious.